What Direction Should the Game Take?

Discussion in 'Minecraft Infected Discussion' started by Aj ツ, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. Aj ツ

    Aj ツ Sr. Moderator

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    After seeing @Piglord 's thread, I wanted to make a thread where we can have a in-depth conversation about your thoughts on the game as it is right now and how you think the game should change. For the most part, the people I have talked to in discord have said the balance is fairly solid right now and its shifting toward a more tanking playstyle. I wanted to know a few things about what you guys thought. I have here a little template you can follow if you want to, or you can free speak and incorporate the questions I ask, or just go off on a tangent about some other mechanic or kit or perk or whatnot.

    1) Do you think the game is balanced right now, in every aspect? If there is an aspect you think is unbalanced what is it (it may be a perk, kit, maps, etc)?
    2) What do you think the game should be more like, tanking or hiding? Why?
    3) What would one change be you would make to the game?
    4) What are things we have done that you don't think was a good change? Why?

    This feedback will help us change the game in a positive way. The server is growing right now and its a good time for us to have this conversation in the community. Please be sure to take some time to think about it, it may not have to be a long reply but put some thought into the response. Thanks guys.
     
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  2. Brejas

    Brejas Member

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    1. Right now I think the game is pretty balanced, with most op spots being nerfed, but I think certain infected kits are very underpowered such as vampire which is just a weaker zombie.
    2. I think the game should be more about tanking as in my opinion that is way more fun then hiding, and I think hiding should only be for lower ranks.
    3. One change I would make is to buff both infected and humans to make the game more fun, what I mean by this is to add infected progression back, but not make it as strong as it used to be. But to balance it out better perks should be added such as an aoe perk or other perks that would help with tanking.
    4. One of the only changes i didnt like is the removal of infected progresion and that you cant get most of the kits without paying
     
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  3. Jordon Nederveld

    Jordon Nederveld New Member

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    1) I feel like the game might be a little too easy for infected rn, there's not a lot of surviving its more scorestreaks and it makes it hard for new players to progress.
    2) I feel like there should be more hiding i feel like a balance of maps for both sides would be beneficial to new and old players
    3) Make endermans less broken
    4) Anyone that doesnt have a rank has a really hard time doing rankups and getting kills, I feel like it should be more balanced and not pay to win, i get it the server has to make money, but its difficult for casual players.
     
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  4. Jordon Nederveld

    Jordon Nederveld New Member

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    Via discord call: Consider adding another starter kit to add on to zombie, we were reconsidering revamping wither skeleton as a few of us agree that its not worth mvp+. new players have a hard time doing a lot of killing as a wooden sword, low mobility, and no range makes it hard to kill tanks. Consider adding wither skeleton and maybe reworking wither skeleton as a starter kit.
     
  5. mocharaven

    mocharaven Builder

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    I believe the game is balanced for the most part. I would like to see more hiding spots - not totally covered ones just little one or two block areas through out the map some hidden and others just enough. If you want to tank then fine but for hiders or newer players it may give them a chance to rank up and then venture out. I don't complain about kits or such because I just take what it is and make the most of it - I try to find a way to use the kit I have the best way for me. As for maps: I would make the maps for multi version usable.. not everyone can get the 1 8 9 and the changes are to just some iron bars, fences or iron doors. I find I can get in wooden ones if I go slow. My feeling is, I would love to see a different variety of maps. Different styles and themes. Other then that I absolutely LOVE the game!
     
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  6. Erupture

    Erupture Member

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    1) I believe that the game is mainly balanced, with only a few infected kits needing buffs, like vampire for example.

    2) I think the game should stay as it is now, with maybe a few more spots for hiders. As of the last month, the build team has been removing TONS of hiding spots, making it hard to survive unless your a commander.

    3) Make it so blaze can’t shoot through walls :/. I also mentioned this on a different thread, but I think surge of firemind should be added back, because it is hard to kill hordes of zombies at the moment. Even a vacuum made would be nice.

    4) I think that there was too many hiding spots being removed. Even though I prefer tanking, it is nice to be able to hide sometimes. It seems like survivors have only been winning if someone gets very lucky, there are a bunch of commanders sitting in a room, or the mother zombies were afk or not the best at pvp.
     
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  7. Mew

    Mew Member

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    1) Game is fine and doesn't need changing. Maybe buff/nerf some Infected classes to increase diversity in what is played?

    2) Play styles are at a fine spot currently in terms of camping vs. hiding.

    3) Remove commander camping punishment lol

    4) The commander camping punishment; I've gone into very full detail about this before, but the tl;dr is that commander camping was never the issue. It was framed around very specific situations that didn't happen all too often, and I think that's a bad way to do balancing. I also feel certain maps have been edited poorly, i.e. Carrier (rest in peace) and Downturn. The former had a reasonable camping spot made absolutely broken because it was made too easy to get to, which made it very hard on Infected to overwhelm the spot. Meanwhile, Downturn has had several ways of getting to the "middle level" of the main camping area removed back when the underground spots were added back. I have yet to this day figured out if this was intentional or just a mistake, but it's made that map a bit poor for Infected gameplay.
     
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  8. bebki

    bebki New Member

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    I just want there to be kevlar vest prestige perk (projectile protection chestplate). Also I want them to remove spawn protection off skellies who are chilling at spawn but bowing people. For example on Studio u can sit at spawn and bow people in the tower but they can't bow you. They should get removed spawn protection. (same applies for blaze)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
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  9. Agent40

    Agent40 Active Member

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    As of right now I don't have nearly enough time to be able to spew out the 2 page essay I want to for this thread so for now I'll just leave my thoughts and say:
    1. No and Yes.
    2. Tanking by far however hiding spots are basically none-existent or lacking of.
    3. Actually add sustainable content that aids and benefits players (this includes adding more prestige perks that aren't completely awful such as a version of firemind, surge, Kevlar Vest, and a simpler, easy to understand form of Prestige Pro Perks or more meaningful perk upgrades that actually grab peoples attention and aren't buffs in terms of chance).
    4. The only thing I can even see that has been good for the server is the implementation of a higher starting rank for new players (Sadly as we've already been shown though, new players continue to complain about having a lack of armour even with these buffs).

    Will attempt to post my actually full thoughts tomorrow.
     
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  10. Piglord

    Piglord Member

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    1. I find the game fairly balanced right now. One thing that I find might not be too balanced is how powerful mother zombie is. I understand that mz is supposed to be a very strong class. However, in my experience, I am able to easily kill players who are ranks below 19, It's not worth it to fight an mz anymore even as a commander as if you do, your game, most of the time is over since you are left with little food, especially if its a good player. I feel like there should be an implementation which makes the mz less powerful depending on how many infected there are. I feel like this would balance mz as lower ranks will have a chance against them.
    2. Personally, I fell in love with this game mode because of the tanking/PVP aspect. Its always been what has brought me back, even after I take a long break, its quite addictive at times too. I think the game should be more tanking influenced as its a more enjoyable activity for most players. If a new player joins the server, I don't believe that they will stay in the server if all they do is hide, most of the new players aren't just looking to hide, rather they look for some PVP action.
    3. Kevlar Vest
    4. The commander tax, it really took away my motivation. I felt like the whole point of MCI was to grind and try and get to Commander, however now you are basically punished for doing so, its kind of weird. Additionally, from PM, there was eclipse boosters, and I would love to see those back for us. If they were in the store, I think people would be very willing to buy them. They hype up the game so much I feel.
     
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  11. Erupture

    Erupture Member

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    Only thing I really have to say is add surge or firemind and nerf mother zombies
     
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  12. Brejas

    Brejas Member

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    I personally find mz balanced as it's only op if the player using it is better then you
     
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  13. Agent40

    Agent40 Active Member

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    Oh man.... well I promised to give an actual reply so here it is. I honestly want to talk a lot more about a lot of these topics but I feel as if typing isn't the best place to share these thoughts. Also most of the people on discord already know my thoughts on basically all of these points so this is more just me setting these ideas and points into stone. I feel as if I've missed a lot of what I did want to talk about as well since I was a bit short on time, but hopefully this is enough for now ^-^

    1) Do you think the game is balanced right now, in every aspect? If there is an aspect you think is unbalanced what is it (it may be a perk, kit, maps, etc)?
    At this point in time and as an overall for every aspect of the game, I do believe that it is balanced for the most part. This doesn't however mean that there are a lot of changes that could be made and should be made to better improve the game as a whole. A lot of the balance right now was only created due to the massive paradigm shift in how the game is played and I personally believe that this isn't just a good thing. I'll get into the reason why this is in the other points but for now, all I want to say is that a lot of the old maps are unbalanced. If it were even possible to mass pump out solid revamps for these maps that come with huge improvements to hiding spots and tanking areas, then I would say the map issue would be completely solved for the most part (and No, not remakes, revamps. Map that don't have their layout changed but instead have aesthetically changes gameplay changes (please refer to question 4 and Dome). Now I do also want to talk about kits and perks but in the context, they are currently pretty balanced as it is so please refer to question 3 for more information on what I believe should be changed about them (and yes I'm re-directing to other questions because they only fit into those question's context without me explaining the way around and connection of everything).

    2. What do you think the game should be more like, tanking or hiding? Why?
    For this question, I know It's meant to be a one or the other but from my standpoint, I want to give points for both. Personally however if people must know, The progression for PvP and tanking is the content I would want to focus on as it is the most important for me as a player who enjoys the game for tanking and the optimization of tanking (prestige perks). I do want to point out though and put a heavy emphasis on having no bias towards tanking as hiding is equally as important especially in a game like Mcinfected due to the nature of the rank system and the multiple styles of gameplay that exist within the game.

    Right now in it's current state, Mcinfected has been stripped in terms of tanking and hiding spots and although I want to stay neutral, I'll only be focusing on my thoughts on tanking since that's what the question asks. Tanking spots were especially hit the hardest after giant holes were ripped into them, ladder spots were basically removed, and anything else involving tanking was nerfed. That's why on a personally level and at this current point in time, I believe the game should be more focused on tanking as that is what majority of the player-base aims to achieve. Before I move onto the next question though, I do want to mention that at the server's current state without looking into other content and issues that stem from these two categories, tanking and hiding are pretty good respectively.

    (cont...)

    3. What would one change be you would make to the game?
    Honestly there are so many things that I would change personally about the gamemode at it's current standpoint. There's a lot to think about and a lot to talk about especially in terms of what would make the game better and what would make the game worse. A lot of these changes sadly will objectively make the server better as a whole while also harming a great portion of players because as we've all seen, the more that's taken away and the more that's added to the game, creates a situation in which some players will still have issues with the change itself.

    The one thing that currently stands out the most however and that I believe needs to be changed is the state of Infected classes and Survivors alike. This includes things like the removal of punishment for commanders, the implementation of more prestige perks that have greater use and bring more utility to the game, a system in which brings prestige pro perks back in the form of upgrading perks via normal means (or adding something similar to prestige perks that can be earned via different means), the addition of a meaningful progression system for Infected that will inherently remove the mundane and stale feel of Infected after 3.0 stripped them of actual progression and content, and finally, the implementation of the ability to unlock Infected classes that doesn't take an eternity to grind (This is probably the most important point). There is a lot more to talk about in terms of changing the state of Infected and Survivors alike but the ones mentioned are the ones that should be dealt with first as they are the most important in terms of how they will change the game and in terms of what impact they will have on the game.

    Right now personally, I hate that the ability to unlock Infected classes is locked behind a paywall. Most of these classes are objectively better than Zombie (excluding Mother Zombie) and are in most cases, just upgraded versions of Zombie itself. This leaves a bad taste in people's mouths especially people who haven't or can't donate $100 sparingly. The same can be said for basically all of the points I made against the state of Infected and Survivors. They all involve the previous removal of something that brought meaning and must needed content/playability to the game. I want to go into more detail about each point here and why I would change it but sadly, that would just be too much even for me so for now I'll just say this, please add Kevlar Vest, Flash, and some form of Surge and Firemind back into the game (Cleave was a really nice idea and I do not believe any explanation is needed to why these perks specifically should be added back into the game (if it's needed though, I'll add it later)).

    4. What are things we have done that you don't think were good changes? Why?
    First off I want to mention, a lot of the things I don't like or think were a bad change for the game, occurred during the MCI 2.0 to 3.0 transmission period and have been pointed out on question 3. So ignoring those, I'm going to specifically focus on the things changed during the life-time of Minecraft Infected (which is what I think the original question was meant to be?). These changes can be noted as, The Commander Tax implementation (a wonky, short term solution to a bigger problem), the addition of Commander Camping Punishment (Like actually why? It doesn't even make sense outside of the gamemode's new game period), and the removal of tanking and hiding spots. Basically all of these have been mentioned about so for this part I'll leave it at short as possible.

    For the removal of tanking and hiding spots, I feel as if the way this was gone about was way too harsh. A lot of the tanking spots removed were only good due to numbers and could have easily been fixed without the entire spot being either removed or torn a new asshole. The same can be said for hiding spots, I feel as if there are far too little hiding spots left on maps especially the older ones (newer maps, especially the remakes fix this problem. Dome is a perfect example of how much a remake can revitalize a mundane and linear map). Finding a better solution such as adding more paths to get to certain spots or just allowing some tanking spots to still exist (look at you ladder and void spots), should have been thought about before completely removing anything resembling tanking (And honestly I hate this the most, the soul reason I played Mci, tanking, was nerfed into the ground not only due to map changes, but because of all of the constraints placed upon them(Commander Camping Punishment, lackluster prestige perks that aren't sustainable, and buffed infected classes)).

    The Implementation of both the Commander Tax and Commander Camping Punishment however, were in my eyes, really bad for the game as a whole. Commander Tax as it was and is, is a simple solution to a much bigger problem that only presented itself in 2.0. I understand that accommodating for expected circumstances is a really big and iffy thing in design and development, however implementing an endless scaling tax was a horrible solution to this problem. The 5% down to 2.5% change was amazing in itself but I still believe that there should also be a tax cap on top of the lowered tax in order to prevent endless scaling (which is something that is always seen as problematic with any game). Now although I believe the tax is way better than it was before, I can't say the same about the arrival of the Commander Camping Punishment System. I can understand the reason behind It's implementation but as I said before, this was a dumb and simple solution to a much bigger issues that stems from the fact that the server was only at It's early stages and just entering mid-game. I personally believe at this point in time that this entire system should be removed completely. There isn't a purpose to keep the system, especially if players are actually give a reason to prestige for once (yknow, question 3 ^). I do believe however that more meaning behind prestiging and rewarding players more for progression would be a far easier to something that wasn't even a problem to begin with. Punishment for a play style isn't the way to go about things, especially when it was never a problem in the first place (This was only the effect of the problem, not the cause or root).


    To end this all off, I just want to say. If you guys want me to go into more depth or have any questions about what I mean for certain things, I'll gladly explain on here or on discord. Whichever works better :3 Anyhoo, sorry for the long post. Wanted to make sure I got down mostly all my main points for each question but I hope this was helpful. Oh and one last thing.... Please for the love of god nerf Mother Zombie holy shit XD

    p.s. If a mod could merge these two posts or have the max character limit raised, that would be greatly appreciated ^-^
     
  14. Brejas

    Brejas Member

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    I Agree with basiacly everything said by agent40
    But I still think Mz is fine as it is and doesn't need to be changed
    same as the prestige tax.
     
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  15. Aj ツ

    Aj ツ Sr. Moderator

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    I cant even quote Agents whole post LMAO. Thats the type of post that earns a pat on the back.
     
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  16. AmericanNewb

    AmericanNewb Member

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    1. I believe the current state of the game is fine how it is, other than a couple of kits like Bee Keeper, Vampire, Iron Golem needing small buffs. Open tanking is still viable but not as easy as it was on 2.0, you just have to be smart with it. I think the game right now is more team-oriented than it was on 2.0. For example, you can't trade hits with a mother even as a commander due you spawning with less food than on 2.0. So it's more worth it to be tanking as a group instead of solo tanking in most cases.

    2. I think the game should revolve around both tanking and hiding, as players on the server like to play the game differently. And right now I think it's fine how it is.

    3. Some sort of infected progression should be added, but if it were to be added back, some better prestige perks as well. I don't think you can have one without the other because it might tip over the balance of the current state of the game. As the biggest commander camper on the server, I don't think the commander punishment is really as bad as people make it seem. I do notice the change but it doesn't really affect me personally. If anything I enjoy playing the best infected class in the game more often.

    4. I think all the changes done by the staff team are fine. Just remove the paywall.
     
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  17. AshlynSwitch

    AshlynSwitch Member

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    Don't have enough time to type up my full thoughts now, but I would say one thing that is NEEDED is that new players have a path to unlock new infected classes without putting money or an obscene amount of time in. Just playing basic zombie is a huge turn-off, that causes many players to leave


    Oh, and one more thing I forgot to add:
    I love supporting, team-oriented play, and would absolutely love if more prestige perks were added to facilitate that. I think that the Prestige Shop needs a pretty massive overhaul (I think many members of the community, myself included, would be very happy to assist in that). Right now, the Pshop is really one-dimensional, and that's not helped by the fact that a lot of the perks are useless. A support survivor or a movement focused survivor could add so much to the game and increase diversity for people like me who aren't the hugest fan of just solo tanking
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
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  18. Mew

    Mew Member

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    @Agent40 you're gonna have to justify to me adding surge or fire mind back because those two perks were the reasons mci 2.0 felt shit other than broken vampire; they're obscenely strong for tanking and in my eyes add nothing to the game outside of buffing commanders, which I really don't think is needed.

    a lot of your post comes off as just "I want to tank more why can't I tank like I used to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA", which is fine, and you address certain tanking-related points that I agree with enough, but a more or less full reversion to 2.0 in terms of what survivors have at their disposal to tank seems unreasonable to me. surge + fire mind and the other tools survivors have at their disposal enables a toxic environment, particularly for newer players, because it becomes so easy to snowball games as a commander and punishes smart play from infected (i.e. group fuck a commander instead of just one by one running at them and praying they're bad).

    kevlar I'm cool with adding back just because I've always felt the game should be more about hiding/camping rather than tanking, but that's a game philosophy argument with absolutely zero correct answer so :shrug:
     
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  19. Agent40

    Agent40 Active Member

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    This is a reply to @Mew and any information surrounding his response.

    So first off I'm going to have to address a few things revolving around the progression of the game itself. In the beginning, before a lot of the older players who quit for years on end came back to check everything out, 3.0 was criticized heavily for the removal of most things that made Mci 2.0 fun. The same thing occurred when Minecraft Infected was released. Most to all of the active and loyal members that remand within the community, disliked the fact that Minecraft Infected was based off of 3.0 instead of 2.0. What a lot of people wanted was the reversion of Mci 2.0 to it's original state in 2015. This, for a lot of the community, is still the case. People want the old progression system back. They want the ability to tank back, they want there to be sustainable content that's rewarding instead of punishing for people who want to play in a certain way. That is why I stated towards the beginning of my original post that
    and for some reason I feel as if you skipped over this. In order for the server to be more sustainable, adjustments need to be made that brings back features once lost that actually allowed for meaningful gameplay (this isn't limited to just tanking however, I talked about this to a extreme degree within my answer to question 2).

    Now Mew I know for a fact you also didn't stick around for a long time on 2.0 either so I know that you'll have a lot of personal bias against it but you have to realise that just because you think the game felt shit doesn't mean it felt shit to the rest of the active players who stuck around. The same can be said and applied when focusing on the topic of firemind and surge. People are right to say in the beginning surge and firemind were busted. However, towards the end of Mci 2.0 and early 2016, both of these were nerfed dramatically. Firemind it itself became a way for cc to be a consistent thing instead of a one off thing. It was completely reworked so it no longer was the horde killer that it once was. The same can be said for Surge. Surge use to be an absolute monster as it was raw vanilla minecraft strength but in the end, it too ended up in a position that made sense for the game (around 10%-20% damage). This balanced out the once overpowered perk immensely. Once balance was finally found it worked out well but I don't understand how you can even begin to say that the perks enabled a toxic environment for new players in anyway. Infected were different. They were more powerful then they are now, so were Survivors. The whole point of moving forward is to take a step in the right direction for all aspects of the game., not just one and I will continue to reiterate this as I did in the original post as well (this includes buffing and making tanking more fun, allowing for a more enjoyable experience when it comes to hiding (not rewarding it but actually allowing it to be beneficial and effective), and finally allowing infected to be able to deal with survivors more efficiently without causing issues for lower ranks (This refers to the loose idea of buffing infected further to the point where they can be considered more of a glass cannon)(p.s. I felt like I needed to make this point more obvious as It kinda got split across 3 paragraphs but, the reason something similar to firemind and/or surge needs to be in the game is because of the games focus on being a horde based PvP server and because there is a major lack of anything cc related (this is a whole other topic that I don't really want to go into because of how in-depth the topic would have to be))).

    Before I address the final part of this response, I just want to say I am happy to touch up this post even more if you ask for it. But I want to address some of the other things you've said in your reply so I'll start off by addressing your opinion on hiding and camping taking priority over tanking. First off, as I said before, this would be an extremely dumb thing to do. This in itself would create imbalance for the gamemode itself and leave the majority of the community in the dark. Most of the people who play this game play it to enjoy the PvP experience. The gamemode itself is a PvP oriented gamemode that was designed to allow people to face off against one another with horde like mechanics. Saying that hiding and camping should be the main priority in itself goes against what the gamemode is. However, that's only if we take into effect that complete and absolute bias was held against tanking. Which as I said multiple times, that should never be the case. Something similar can be said about how you view what you call a " game philosophy argument with absolutely zero correct answer". From a game development standpoint this is incorrect. The aim of a game designer and game developer is to achieve balance between all aspects of the game based on the main focus of the game. If a game is PvP oriented then the main focus should be on the player vs player experience. If a game is PvE oriented then the main focus should be on achieving balance and scaling between the entities (enemies) and the player itself. If the game is classified as a sandbox then the main focus should be on giving the player the tools necessary to create their own enjoyable experience. Saying that there are zero correct answers is a falsification of the statement "There is a solution to every problem".

    Ending this off though, I just want to explain the idea of the prestige perk Cleave. Cleave is an idea that was originally brought up by either @Rocky or @Aj ツ. The purpose of Cleave is to create a replacement for firemind and surge that still allows players to have some sort of cc to contain and control the hordes of infected. The whole idea of this is that on either an automatic cooldown or keypress cooldown, the player would deal x amount of damage to all infected within a x block radius. This would function similarly to how sweeping edge functions in Minecraft 1.9+ versions. This would remove the downside of fire-tick and remove the ability to strength kill and replace it with something more sustainable. I personally like the idea a lot and think it would be an amazing addition to the game that creates a more balanced experience for when you are open tanking (encouraging once again a completely different play style that has been long forgotten due to the limitations of playing with a low player count). Now I really don't want to go on for much longer so I'll end off by just saying, there's so much more I could go into especially since this is only a portion of what I would actually change if given the opportunity. Creating balance takes a long time and I think more people need to realize that only touching up upon one aspect of a game will always cause imbalance and utter chaos (Overwatch for the longest time did an amazing job for this. They prepared and balanced previous heroes for newer heros which is something I admired for a long time and something that I believe should be noted for all forms of game design and development. (The Ability to actually attune everything instead of just one thing)).

    Anyhoo, that's the end of this reply to what you've said. Also you should consider not adding expressive quotes like that into your response. It just seemed a bit immature and provocative so I didn't really know how to respond to it without just saying this? Anyway, That's all from me, I still want to talk about a lot more here but I have once again run out of time for now. Sorry for the long post once again and I hope this was enough ^-^
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
    Brejas likes this.
  20. Mew

    Mew Member

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    aight let me show you how large scale response are done lads. this post was in my eyes incredibly incoherent and contradictory in multiple areas, so im gonna do my best to ask questions to gain clarity and ofc refute arguments like "this is dumb" because wow that adds absolutely zero substance to your argument ROFL. apologies for any perceived hostility in my response
     
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